Culture Conflict in the Club

Just my thoughts and musings.

Cultures in conflict at the club.

Lately I’ve been discussing reggaeton and sex. Specifically 1. Why I don’t mind the sexual content of reggaeton but dislike it in hiphop and 2. Why I, along with other women, enjoy reggaeton songs about sexual aggression. I will sum up my conclusions on both of these, then comment on some observations I have made since writing those 2 essays.

Sexual content of reggaeton vs hiphop

1. From my POV, the sexual content of reggaeton tends to be more of the seductive sort. A lot of the songs are detailing how attractive the artists find the women as they dance and how they want her to come and be with them. While the distinction my be sublte, to me there is a difference between “Girl, you look so good when you dance, your moves so great that I really want us to hook up” and “I saw a fine girl and since Im da bomb, Im going to have her and do her”. I would say that in reggaeton there seems to be more of an appreciation not simply for female beauty, but their dancing and passion. In hiphop, last I bothered to listen, it seems that the appreciation is mostly for her appearance and the desire is to have her and primarily for the enjoyment of the male. Not only for his enjoyment, but for his reputation.Its not that he admires her and wants to have a good time with her, but that he wants to be able to pull the hot chicks. It also makes a difference that frequently in reggaeton the women are being addressed and not simply spoken about.

2. While often very suggestive, I feel there is still a bit more artistry to the lyrics in reggaeton. I would much rather a man tell me that I am a gata fiera and dance well and he’d love to spend the night with me than “I see you winding and grinding up on that pole, I want to fuck you”.

3. Context. I have heard a lot of hiphop and it is frequently very dismissive and deragatory toward women. Some of it is simply hateful. And I have spoken to many African American males who state plainly, “I hate black women”. I cannot separate the music from the cultural context, I cant say “Well, maybe they don’t mean it like that” when I have heard so many men simply state that they hate women in general and black women in particular. I have never heard a latino male say that he hates latino women. And I don’t appreciate sexism and men who are stuck in the old traditional gender roles, but I prefer an attitude of unequal but loving to maybe equal but hating. Yes, I would rather have a man who felt it wasn’t his job to feed kids or change diapers, but who was a loving and tender and gentle father than one who felt it was his job to take care of his kids, but did so in a harsh unkind manner IF those were my only 2 choices.

4. Mutual lust- I feel that in hiphop the woman is being addressed to meet the needs of the male. In reggaeton its often more of an invitation to share pleasure and have a good time together- whether in the bed or on the dance floor. I noted once that in a latin club, the women are essential. If the DJ cant keep the women happy, there will be no dancing. In many hiphop clubs, men will dance alone or with each other, in big circles hooting and pumping their fists, totally oblivious to the women. There can be more of a mob mentaility, a bunch of men listening to songs about fucking women and getting crunk. Its for them to bond and share a common interest and brag about their conquests, its not them singing to the women to join them in this. For women, there can be a feeling of being hunted by a mob of men on the warpath.

I’m listening to a remix of I Want to Fuck You. The rapper is now telling the woman how when he gets her she is going to be so turned on by him and how good his dick is and how he will have her nose wide open and turn her out and make all her fantasies come true. Its still ALL ABOUT HOW GREAT HE IS.

Hey, its just me but I prefer “You look so hot, lets fuck” to “You look good, I want to fuck you”. See, I like to dance. I don’t dance for the man. Im not doing it so he can sit and watch and admire me and think how much he wants to do me. Acknowledge that I dance well, I look good and that Im having fun. Don’t leave MY feelings out of it.

I’ve had a lot of men want to see me dance \. But latinos usually ask me to dance WITH them, where americans tend to ask me to dance FOR them.

As far as the sexual aggression in reggaeton?

1. A lot of people like rough sex. Not BDSM, but simply rough sex. Many people who enjoy it rough also enjoy intense physical sensations in other areas of life. They may lift weights till it burns, run marathons, dance or do aerobics till their muscles ache, practice martial arts, box and so on. They find intense physical extertion and the resulting pain exhilirating and pleasurable. It isnt about domination or gender roles, but physical pleasure.

2. I can name off the top of my head 5 women who like rough sex. All are over age 35, none of them are shrinking violets or the least bit dependent. They are very strong willful women. And I have found that rather than like the traditional gender roles, women who like it rough are often those who are unconventional and untraditional in general. Willing to break out of the passive female role and do what pleases them. And the men who like women who like rough sex tend to be men who appreciate a woman who is not bound by tradtional gender roles, either in bed or out. So rather than illustrate an appreciation for the status quo, I think in a way these songs speak to women who dare to go for what they want and like and NOT women who are looking to be dominated and controlled by a man.

3. It is a part of the whole mating ritual. When at the club dancing, some women like songs about love and romance and the whole dreamy sweet man caressing them and giving butterfly kisses. Some women like songs about them being buck wild, spanking and being spanked and biting and scratching. I know a few people who are animals in bed, but absolutely totally well behaved people anywhere but the bed. On the dance floor there is the opportunity to display what it is that you like, what sort of lover you are. Women like the chance to display that they do indeed like it a little rough and a little freaky. For 3 minutes you can dance to La Fiera and advertise what kind of lover you are. And men do it to, they spank but they get spanked. Often after a few minutes of man in back perreo or dancing, the man will turn and the woman dances behind him doing the same things to him that he just did to her.

4. It is fantasy and doesn’t go past the dance floor unless by mutual agreement. No one wants to hear a huge giant man singing this stuff. I’d guess that the songs work best when it’s a small slight man singing about sex and spanking. Theres a difference between a man that’s a little freaky and who will spank you and let you spank him and a large imposing man singing that he wants to spank you. The fantasy isnt about being abused or manhandled, its about getting freaky. Any man who takes this past the floor will find himself surprised by the negative reaction. Theres a safe zone and once out of that zone, it has to end.

5. Women like to have sex. Women like to dance. Women like to be touched, caressed and held. Like many ppl, I have a hard time seeing depictions of sex without automatically thinking, “Photo of a woman being spanked as shes bent over the bed being penetrated, men always using us for their pleasure. Oh, look she’s on her knees performing oral sex as he pulls her hair, shes servicing him”. But women LIKE these things, they do them for their OWN pleasure. Often we see people dancing at the club and a man may caresss a woman and we think “He’s getting his thrills feeling on her”. Maybe he is. But to ME, if we cannot acknowlege that maybe WOMEN like being caressed, maybe women like close body contact, maybe women enjoy gyrating their pelvises to the music along with a man then we’re treating women as objects and not fully functional sexual creatures with desires of their own.

Why assume that a song by a man saying that he’s going to give it to a woman hard and spank her ass is about HIM using her for his pleasure? Why isnt he singing a song about how he is going to pleasure a woman in the way that she likes it? PC or not, I will tell you that I have a few songs and everytime I translate the lyrics the women’s reaction is , “Now that right there is EXACTLY what I want”. Must we frame everything involving sex as male exploitation of women?

I say that part of the problem with control of teen pregnancy and STDs is because we refuse to address female desire, to admit that GIRLS have desire and lust and LIKE sex. We teach males and females alike to resist the male advances, not to let men take advantage of them, not to give it away. To not let men touch them, to caress them and get their cheap feels, not to let men pressure them into sex. But that leaves both boys and girls unprepared for the fact that WOMEN WANT TO HAVE SEX. That a girl may WANT to be touched and caressed. If we teach them- if you would rather not have sex, don’t allow anyone to fondle you because it may arouse you and you may be overcome by desire, that might work. If we teach girls to manage their own sexual feelings and teach boys that girls can also be overcome, so even if they don’t want to go to far, the girl may have ideas of their own MAYBE we can make some progress.

Yeah, we like to hear things that approach s

So, having written most of that I went out again. There was a man, I wont identify his nationality, I will simply call him the X-ian, since he is from pais X. 2 weekends ago I danced with him at the club and an afterparty. Normal same old dancing as I do with many men I like and who dance well. Not explicit, but definitely suggestive dancing. Afterwards at the party he was all over me after we danced again, and even asked me if I was “lista” a FEW times, then showed me a condom. I simply said no, and went to dance and talk to other friends. I stayed at the party until he left, in fact since it was at the house of a friend, I spent the night.
The following night he was at the club again and I spoke to him and he INSISTED that I WOULD show up at an event the following day.

Skip to the week, on Friday I had a visitor and he said “The X-ian wants you to call him”
“For what?”
“I guess he wants to fuck you”
“tell him I am not doing anything with him. He’s sweating me”

I go to the club Friday, give the X-ian a cd. He reaches for me and says “you are going to be my woman for tonight”. I react politely but in the negative, kind of joking and saying “Oh, is that what you think?”
Later I dance with someone else then he returns, buys me a beer despite my refusal and then chats with me actually asking me if I was going to take him home with me.
“No”
“Don’t be that way with me”
I go dance some more with other ppl, disappear, then he returns and we dance. Basically like usual but he’s made me uncomfortable so I don’t want to dance with him. And while to an outsider he wasn’t dancing with me any more salaciously than any of my other partners, I wasn’t pleased. He later asked why I hadnt given him my phone number.
I actually stopped to ask my ex where he had parked and asked him to walk me to my car that night.Then I went to the bathroom, and passed a female friend, told her “Im hiding from Z, the x-ian”

“Oh, the X-ian, the black guy?”
And we discussed his behavior, she said he was the same way at the party the week before. Told me to tell him NO and then knee him in the balls.

I went and returned, danced some more then a friend came and I went to talk to him, his sister and the X-ian went outside to talk. She returned and I asked “Wheres Z?”
“U mean the X-ian? He was making me claustrophobic, I had to get away. I was like, its hot motherfucker and u aint lettin me get no air. I cant breathe. Im claustrophobic.”

I told her w hat he said about me being his woman for the night, her response- “Oh hell no, no motherfucker tells ME what to do. Fuck that”

So we all discussed him some more. If he cant figure it out, he is going to be excluded from the clique. Because the girls (we are all over 30) have all discussed his behavior with each other and with the other men in the crew.
Discussing him with OTHER friends we were like “Some men are just like that”. Yes, but in YEARS of clubbing I have NEVER had that problem. NEVER. EVER. There are rules, an etiquitte. He doesn’t know it and that puzzled me.
Someone made a random remark about my complexion and my sister and I were talking “Wow, in the past 16 years every man I have dated has been the same color. At their lightest they are the same color as me at my darkest. I’ve never been with a man lighter than me, not even Asian ones”. My sister laughed and said she’d known white guys darker than she was.

And that made me think- the whole crew is probably my complexion. Im maybe one of the lightest ones, I think only the Korean girl is MAYBE a tiny bit lighter. So the X-ian, being so dark and African featured is automatically going to stand out. Plus, he’s Xian and everyone is is pretty much Puerto Rican. But we have had some BLACK Puerto Ricans in the crew in the past. So its not that he’s so dark, its not that the women are rejecting him based on phenotype.\ and we’d appreciate his advances if he were tan.

Then I listened ,“the black guy”. He’s lived in the US a while and is an Afro-Latino, but culturally he is African-American. And he’s acting in the Latin Club like he is at the HipHop club. He doesn’t know the rules, the unspoken code. But he doesn’t KNOW that he doesn’t know it because its Pan Latin, right? So he figures he fits right in. He doesn’t know that he is messing up so badly that someone is going to one day say “Go back to the other club and hang out with black people”, at which point things will get ugly.

As I thought about it some more, I again said “I HAVE NEVER had this happen.” But I remembered ONE man, a few months ago, who asked me to take him home with me. He was also X-ian, but not black.

I will explain some of the rules, the code.

1. If a woman wants to be with you, she will tell you. There is no need to ask. The most appropriate and proper approach is after dancing to say “I would like to see you again” and let the woman tell you how she wishes to proceed. If you are turned down you may ask again at that time, but if turned down again let it be and thank her for her time and the dance. DO NOT ASK HER AGAIN THAT NIGHT.

2. Compliments are best given while dancing. If a woman wants to spend time with you she will either accept your offer to dance or she will allow you to sit/stand with her as she sits out.While dancing, it is ok to sing some of the song to her if it’s a bit romantic or even sexual. She’ll let you know if she appreciates it or not. If you wish to comment on her dancing or beauty, do it while she is dancing with you. Once off the floor, keep that to yourself and maintain a respectful distance and be very polite.

3. Know that what happens on the dance floor stays on the dance floor and has very little to do with sex or the bed. A woman who dances well will often dress and dance in a seductive manner because she’s on display and wants to look good. She will dance VERY suggestively oftentimes with her dance partners, not because its about sex but because they dance well together. With a partner she knows well or trusts, it may look very sexual but chances are they don’t know one another outside of the dancefloor.

Learn the cues.
For example. I usually keep most of my skin covered. My clothing is tight, but not skimpy. It is not appropriate to touch my skin, other than my hands and maybe my waist if my shirt is short.

It is never appropriate to grab me. Ever. Ever. Do not grab my arm or hand. If you want to get my attention, tap me gently. If you wish to lead me to the floor, extend your hand and allow me to take it. DO NOT EVER GRAB ME. When you need to lead me thru a crowded floor to the bar or my chair, gently guide me by placing one hand on my shoulder or back, or even wais while using the other to tap the ppl in front of me so I can get thru. Or cut thru the crowd ahead of me, and let me hold your hand and follow. BUT DO NOT PULL ME.

It is not appropriate to touch me with fingertips. When holding a partner, if you arent involved with them make sure to use your palms or the pads of them to hold the partner. Full finger contact is too intimate. It is ok to spank, but not full hand contact. It is ok if you know the partner, to wipe sweat MAYBE. Do not touch the face of a partner who hasn’t given permission no matter how close you are dancing, don’t lean your face to hers.

It is ok to touch hips, the sides and maybe tops of the thighs. It is ok to touch the waist, but not wrap your hands around it. Do not touch the inner thigh. Do not touch the breasts.If you wrap your arms around a womans waist, do not rest your hands or arms against her, simply encircle her.

If a woman is dancing with you very suggestively and closely, but her fingers never touch you, she leans her arm against you at the wrist and her hands and upper arms never make contact with hers- shes maintaining distance. If she dances with her pelvis close to yours, but still maintains some distance in the torso area, she’s keeping you at bay. If even when dancing close to do turns etc, she keeps her face away from yours and doesn’t allow her chin or face to rest on your shoulders or chest- same thing.

Because the dances themselves require a lot of physical intimacy, the normal rules don’t apply. You cant rely on the pelvis and hips to tell you whats going on because its going to be VERY sexual. Look to the hands, the eyes, the face to see how close a woman is allowing you to be. I read once that an american woman when found naked will cover her breasts and genitals to maintain modesty, but that a muslim woman will allow that all to be seen but cover her face.

Bottom line, is the X-ian doesn’t know the rules. When I used to dance at one club years ago, there was a hiphop side and a latin side. We hated it on hiphop night because the men would harass us on the way from the bathroom to our room. Sometimes your arm would be grabbed randomly and you would have no idea who had you until you stopped and he made his way thru the ppl to you. (In a packed crowd there can be sometimes 5 ppl in the distance between 2 outstretched arms). There were fights every week and sometimes the other side would be closed down while the other side kept dancing.

Theres another club too that has a latin room and the main floor is hip hop, and the women don’t like it. Sometimes men would come in and see women dancing like “sluts” and dressed up in skimpy clothes and they would push and push and push, and not take no for an answer and the women felt harassed. They cant see the difference between women being led thru the floor and being pulled. Arent able to gauge the pressure of touches they see and arent getting that yopu don’t grab women, even if you put your hand on an arm you never wrap the hand around it.

Women often avoid white men who dance reggaeton because often they cant seem to maintain proper control and are very grabby. I attribute it to lack of practice dancing so closely to women, they arent yet immune to getting aroused. And they don’t understand that we’re actually DANCING and not just grinding on one another.

Based on the music the X-ian played when he DJed and his appearance and where he lives, Im pretty sure that he’s spent most of his time in the hiphop clubs and culture and this has a lot to do with his total inabil;ity to figure out WHY he keeps getting turned down. All the signals are telling him that the women like him, like his dancing, find him sexy etc but then they all say NO. And he cant take the No for an answer because he is so SURE that they have been telling him Yes all along, that he feels they simply need to be courted and complimented and made aware of his interest. And the more he does tthat, the more they avoid him.

As I mentioned, I dislike a man to come on to me with anything other than a “I’d like to see you again”. I don’t need the compliments and flattery off the floor, if you asked me to dance its apparent that you are interested. If you ask me to see me again, of course you are interested. Wait until I say yes and we go out THEN regale me with tales of my beauty and charm and tell me why you were interested. Or,as we dance to a song that says how good a woman dances, or how pretty she is, make eye contact with me. I’ll understand. But the hard sell approach doesn’t work.

But the approach is so different. One approach is to bombard a woman, let her know how interested you are, how attractive she is, how much you want to spend time with her, how good u will treat her and just overwhelm her with your interest. The other is to show her appreciation, ask to see her again and allow her to choose.

Im not saying anyone is wrong, what works one place doesn’t work in another. Im just sort of going thru the unspoken rules and club code, things that we know that one cant necessarily see.

Oh, there was a latina there with her white gringo boyfriend. Last week she was dancing salsa and totally leaving him in the dust. He could not hang AT all, but he stayed the whole time and tried to lead her thru turns and just do a few steps. This week he was doing the steps better and could lead her thru the turns as she danced. He also wore a button down shirt and a blazer today. I was so proud of him.He’s not just brave enough to get out there and work on dancing when he cant do it AT all and shes SO much better, but he actually made the effort to learn the rules and dressed appropriately. That he isnt latino and new to this probably makes it easier on him than the X-ian who has enough knowledge of the culture to think he knows whats going on. Sort of the dance equivalent of a false cognate. He sees something and it looks like something he knows and he doesn’t realize it’s a different language because he doesn’t realize there IS a different one. The white guy came into it KNOWING it was all new to him .

(Most men where I dance wear slacks and button down shirts, the women dress up and we resent it when men show up in tshirts and thugwear. Only the hottest cutest of the under 25 set wears jeans and tshirts and they are still NICE thsirts and jeans)